This interview was conducted and published in Hindi on 3 April 2025, before the passing of the Waqf Bill by the Rajya Sabha, which took place the following day.
Lok Sabha has passed the Waqf Amendment Bill. Why are you opposing it?
I am opposed to this legislation. The government is claiming that it wants to regulate Waqf. But only yesterday, Union Minister Kiren Rijiju, while speaking in Lok Sabha, referred to Railway and Defence land. This makes it clear that the government’s intention is to grab land. It wants to interfere in the functioning of the Waqf Boards. The second reason why I am against it is because it is unconstitutional. Land is a state subject but yesterday the Union Home Minister Amit Shah said that the proposed law would be a central statute, and that all states would be bound by it.
When land is not a Union subject, when it is a state subject, then why would state governments be bound by it? You must have noticed that the measure is already facing opposition in states where parties and coalitions other than the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) or National Democratic Alliance (NDA) are in power. The fact of the matter is that the present Union Government has attacked the federal structure of the country and increased tension between the Centre and the states.
The third reason why I am opposing it is that the government wants to create tension in the country. They pulled down the Babri Masjid and after that began talking about Kashi and Mathura. And now they are doing politics on Waqf. What will happen is that people will oppose it in all parts of the country. Some Muslims may get worked up; they may be provoked to go overboard and then the government will open fire on them.
Another thing I want to say is that Nishikant Dubey, a member of the joint parliamentary committee on the Waqf Bill headed by Jagdambika Pal, not only breached the disciplinary norms of such panels but also stained the decorum and dignity of Parliament. Hindi newspaper Dainik Bhaskar prominently published a story quoting him saying that the committee had received these many suggestions and so on even before tabling of the report of the committee in Parliament. I even wrote a letter to Jagdambika Pal saying that he should expel Dubey from the committee for breach of discipline. But he did nothing.
The government is saying that it wants to give representation to Pasmanda Muslims and women on the Waqf Board. Your take?
Thanks for reminding me about that. The joint parliamentary committee did a bizarre thing in the name of Pasmandas. It caught hold of a government employee who happened to be a Pasmanda and forced him or maybe offered him some inducement to depose before the committee. The committee members also patted him on the back and yesterday, in his address, the union minister also referred to it. Now, a meeting of the joint parliamentary committee was proposed in Patna. I wrote a letter to Jagdamibika Pal saying that I am the national president of the All India Pasmanda Mahaz, that I have been running this campaign for the past two decades and that I have been a Rajya Sabha member for 12 years. So, when you come to Patna, please inform me so that we can put forth our views before the committee. But he knew that the statement of a government servant had already been recorded and also that I had objected to that. He must have thought that if he came to Patna, he may be exposed. And so the meeting of the committee was cancelled.
As for the government giving representation to Pasmandas and women in Waqf boards, had the real intent of the government not been to grab Waqf land, I would have been the first person to back this Bill. But the government’s hands are not clean. It has provided unlimited powers to the district collector. He would interfere as much as he wanted to. This would lead to disputes in village after village. There would be tension and rioting.
The government is also saying that the Waqf properties are not being monetized fully. Does the government want to commercialize Waqf properties?
You are right. The government wants to usurp Waqf properties and hand them over to corporate entities, just as it is doing with railway, defence and forest lands.
The government is again trying to use the Pasmanda community as a pawn in its game. Is this not because the opposition parties have been largely ignoring the Pasmandas?
As I have already said, this is a conspiracy hatched by the government. This is an assault on the religious rights of the Muslims. The creation of a Waqf is a religious process. How can a non-Muslim regulate it? Will you dare provide for non-Hindu membership on the board of a Hindu religious trust? Can you make such provisions for the Sikh religious trusts? I tell you Sikhs will be out on the streets, armed with their kirpans. But yes, they can do it with regard to the Christians. Muslims and Christians are in their crosshairs.
Elections are due in Bihar this year. Will Nitish’s party [Janata Dal (United)] backing the Bill impact its vote bank?
Nitish Kumar won’t be able to open his account. Given what his party’s MP Rajiv Ranjan Singh alias Lallan Singh did and said or what the deputy chairperson of one of the Houses said – I don’t think it is necessary for me to take his name – I don’t think the people of Bihar will forgive them. Just see how ministers and police were sent to take possession of the Imarat-e-Sharia because it opposed the Bill. Bihar’s Muslims are seeing all this.
The Muslim Personal Law Board has said that it will challenge the Bill in the Supreme Court and launch an agitation along the lines of the farmers’ protest. How do you react to it?
It is good that they are planning to challenge it in the Supreme Court. But all the political parties in the country who stand by secularism and the Constitution of this country should agitate against the measure. But there is an addendum. These days the minorities do not get justice even from courts. Just look at the Babri Masjid case. There was no historical proof that a temple once stood where the mosque was built. But it was said that a temple was there. One of the judges on the bench that delivered the judgment was made a Rajya Sabha member. A Muslim judge was appointed as the governor of a state. A protest movement can be one way. But I worry that if this Bill becomes an Act, it will create tension in the country. Also, the relations between the Centre and the states will sour further. Today, the Tamil Nadu and the West Bengal governments are protesting. Tomorrow, other state governments may join them. The fact is that the government is trying to hide its failures. It doesn’t know what to say about American President Donald Trump imposing higher tariffs on India. The government has launched an assault on the religious rights of the Muslims to deflect attention from its failures.
How will the new law affect the poor and the deprived (including Pasmandas), who are beneficiaries of Waqf properties?
You see. The fact is that the Waqf properties have been rented out to the poor and the deprived on nominal rents to help them earn a living. That is why the income of Waqf Boards is low. They do not demand a holding tax. It has a religious purpose – to provide succour to the poor and the helpless. What the government wants to do now is to charge rents at market rate. This will hit the poor hard. Those who won’t be able to pay would be deprived of the properties. This would be immoral and also an interference in religious matters.
How will the new law impact the politics of the Pasmanda community at the national level?
There will be no impact. I have said it earlier and I reiterate now that the Pasmandas have negligible representation and they should get more. But that does not mean that you hand over Waqf properties to corporate houses. I repeat that if the issue was giving representation to the Pasmanda and women, I would have been the first person to support the Bill. That has been my consistent stance. I had backed the law on triple talaq and so had all progressives.
(Translation from the original Hindi by Amrish Herdenia)
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